Mark Osherow: The court handled the objections well, with reasonable flexibility given the format, without a jury. I do think there are going to be additional considerations and issues to work through for jury trials. But most of those should be resolvable. The platform is not perfect (in terms of replicating the human world of interaction) but does offer a lot of flexibility and really enables us as litigators to accomplish our goals. In addition to routine non-evidentiary matters, while Zoom and other platforms of this nature may not be the perfect solution for every trial, there are many matters, including lengthy evidentiary hearings and trials that can—and should—be effectively handled virtually. It was great to work on one of the first full trials on Zoom in Florida, and while we were not necessarily making history, all of us felt we were contributing to bringing the use of virtual platforms beyond being an experiment for conducting extensive evidentiary hearings and multi-day trials in Florida’s courts.
After making my arguments during a Special Set hearing, and upon opposing counsel’s commencement of his argument, I stood up (revealing my pineapple print shorts), took off my suit jacket, and put my dog in my lap. I watched the rest of the hearing with my dog in my lap. It was only after the hearing that Mark advised me (which he thought was quite hilarious) of my mortifying mistake (he also made a comment about needing his emotional support animal during the hearing, but the participants did not seem to notice). Graciously opposing counsel and the Court did not mention anything about my indiscretions; I will assume they were not viewing the hearing using the Gallery View function; I will certainly not make that same mistake again. I highly recommend muting your microphone at all times when you are not speaking, in addition to stopping the video (especially if you have personal hygiene or other such matters to address). Note: do not pick your nose or clip your toenails on camera!
Preliminary considerations and logistics
Diagram 1
Mark and I decided it would be best if we set up the conference room to mimic a courtroom. A few days prior to the commencement of trial we set up as well as tested all equipment (laptops, headsets, cameras, televisions, PC monitors, etc.) We also each logged in to Zoom and had a number of mock trial sessions to test out functionality and make sure everything was working properly. There are more things to be concerned about than you might think. We practiced the “share screen” function to practice presenting evidence to witnesses and asked each other questions as if we were witnesses. We also tested the lighting and backgrounds. Our set up is pictured in Diagram 1 and described as follows:
a. Each attorney sat in a desk chair, at least 6 feet apart from the other attorney (social distancing), with his or her own laptop.
b. For this trial we had three (3) devices logged on to Zoom: me on my laptop, Mark on his laptop, and an iPad connected to the television. The iPad connected to the conference room flat screen enabled the trial to be viewed by anyone in the room at all times. Mark also had a second screen set up for the main purpose of document sharing space on Zoom.
c. The podium at the end of the conference room was the location where the presenting attorney would speak. We elevated the podium with bed-risers college kids use in their dorm rooms. We are sure some of you will have more sophisticated methods. But this worked well. Unless you feel more comfortable sitting, as I do most of the time, this is an effective means of simulating the courtroom setting. As stated above, that attorney’s laptop was connected to a PC monitor to facilitate the attorney’s viewing of the exhibits and presentation of evidence to the witness. We would also recommend (although we did not use one) that you obtain an elevated drafting chair for sitting near the podium when not presenting, if the proceeding is quite long. Otherwise, you will be moving around the equipment so you can sit down at the conference table between witnesses. You may need to do this anyway depending on if a colleague will also be presenting from the podium. In that event make sure you are prepared to swap out the HDMI connection to the second monitor and to plug in the webcam (unless using the same laptop). Make sure you test out all these connections in advance, particularly if using different operating systems. Also keep in mind that you may need adapters from USB to USB-C, or whatever connectivity may be required. Preparation in advance is critical. You do not want these issues cropping up in the middle of the trial because they have not been considered and tested in advance. Headphones are another major issue to be prepared about and I will address that separately.
d. Next to the monitor there was an external wide-screen webcam. We placed the external webcam on the top of the monitor which created a good viewing angle for the presenter which allows the presenter to move around without being restrained to right in front of the laptop. Make sure the monitor is appropriately elevated. We used books for all of this. Again, that worked, but I am sure there are more sophisticated methods.
e. On the right of the podium was a smaller table with another laptop that had just the exhibits. The presenting attorney could view his or her exhibits with notes on them on that laptop, without having to show those annotated exhibits to the Court or the witness. Another option was for the presenting attorney to have the annotated exhibits printed on the table or for the exhibits to be on an iPad. In short, the presenting attorney was viewing the exhibits that were being presented to the witness on the large monitor and using his or her laptop on the podium, for the Zoom controls and to view the participants. So, it is good to have another computer to view exhibits separately. As with any other trial, each attorney has to figure out what works best for their style. But using the same screens to both view exhibits, and to select them for viewing can be challenging. With practice all of this does get easier as you hit your stride. Make sure you have carefully reviewed your exhibits for each witness and know where to find them. Practice the order they will be used and all cross referencing between them.
f. In order for different devices to be connected to Zoom, and be used in the same room, all devices must be connected to a headset. If not, each time an attorney speaks there will be echo, reverberation, and the electronic version of nails on a chalkboard. Mark and I preferred to use wireless earbuds so that we would not get tangled up (literally and figuratively) during trial. Since the earbuds only last a few hours we also had traditional headsets that plug directly into the laptop. Each of us had at least one (1) set of earbuds and two (2) sets of traditional headsets at all times. Headsets have to be connected through your operating setup and through Zoom. The headset selection is contained under the audio tab at the bottom left of the Zoom screen (up arrow). Practice switching headphones as the settings on the laptop and Zoom will have to be adjusted each time you switch out.
Another issue we had to discuss and resolve prior to trial was the issue of which background to use during trial. Whereas prior to trial, Mark preferred to take his Zoom calls from the Long Room at the Library at Trinity College in Dublin:
I preferred to take my Zoom calls from my suite at the Ritz Carlton in Paris:
We both agreed that it would be best to have either a clean, professional, live neutral background (such as the painting in the conference room behind the presenting attorney’s podium) or a virtual solid color background as the background, when we sat in messy areas of the conference room during the trial. Lighting was also an issue that we had to deal with prior to trial. As you can see in my picture at the Ritz, there is a blue glare and a reflection of the laptop screen on my glasses; Mark wears quite stylish glasses during trial (not those pictured during his Dublin calls) that we needed to make sure also did not reflect the laptop screen. Although a problem when appearing from other locations, such as a home office, glare was not an issue during the Zoom trial located in the conference room; the overhead lights did not shine directly on our glasses, and neither of us was close enough to the screen during our presentations so that reflection would be an issue. This was also a benefit of the podium set up.
One particularly challenging yet very important aspect of a Zoom trial is being able to follow the Judicial Assistant (“JA”) and the Clerk’s instructions. If either of them says “Jump!” you ask, “How high?” The JA’s instructions need to be followed in order for the Clerk to be able to upload all of the exhibits to the software used by the Clerk and the Judge during trial. If the parties do not label the exhibits as instructed by the JA and the Clerk’s office, matching up the exhibits with the numbered list may be impeded. Note that the numbers assigned to each exhibit in the document name may not transfer over to the court’s system. Rather than printing exhibits, putting exhibit labels on them, then scanning them, we were able to find electronic exhibit tabs you “stick” onto the PDF exhibit. Prior to trial the Clerk spent time with each party reviewing exhibits that could not be clearly seen or identified on her software. There are good and quite inexpensive document exhibit stamps available to integrate with Adobe Pro DC. I suggest you obtain one and learn how to use it yourself or designate a staff member to handle this task (videos available). Contact us if you need additional information about this.
Finally, I cannot stress enough the importance of extension cords, duct tape, and charger AC adapter power cords for all electronic devices to be used. Thankfully, Mark has tried several cases throughout his 30 plus years as a litigator and had boxes full of these goodies. We each also had two (2) laptops with us throughout the trial in case one of them crashed…in addition to enough snacks to stop a train should any of the participants on our end require nourishment. I cannot say enough how important it is that you find and test a setup that works best for you.
Q & A with Vivo and Osherow
Kristin Vivo: Mark, what did you think were the cons of having a nonjury trial via Zoom?
Mark Osherow: It was hard to appreciate a witness’s reaction to certain questions making the process impersonal at times. I also found it harder to confront witness on the stand, as the platform creates a barrier that is not there in a “live” trial. But overall working with Zoom has a lot more positives than negatives. Working with exhibits and presentations and having the participants focus on what is right in front of them is facilitated. The platform also makes it easier in a business case to address specific language contained in a document as highlighting particular language and directing the court or a witness to particular section of a document is easy and the platform facilitates this interaction very well. Zoom also facilitates document comparisons and working with multiple documents at one time. You can tab between open documents in Adobe Acrobat and also set up the screen view to look at documents side-by-side and then also open another document that might be significant right alongside or over those documents. You can go back to the other documents with a simple click. This requires some training and practice. But this is amazing functionality. Practice with it and learn how to do these things in advance. As much as we tried, since this was our first Zoom trial, we had absorbed as much as possible in advance, but were continuing to learn while the trial was ongoing. At the beginning I did not know how to show side-by side documents. But I learned; I watched a lot of videos in the evenings, to become more proficient. However, that proficiency might have become a bit zealous at times (think: like a virtual break-dance with the exhibits).
Kristin Vivo: What do you mean impersonal? Their face was in the camera and so was yours?
Mark Osherow: Yes, that is true, but for the witnesses, my concern was that the “intimidation” of the courtroom and the judge right there was not present. I am not sure this was a major factor, but it is indeed a concern.
Kristin Vivo: I did not like the “IT issues” that may occur with difficult witnesses during depositions and trials. It has happened to me on more than one occasion that a difficult witness said he/she could not hear the question or was having IT issues. It is difficult to access if they are being truthful or simply trying to avoid a difficult question. Our trials and depositions in this matter, had an extra wrinkle in it because we had several witnesses that did not speak English, so we had to work with an interpreter. When these IT issues occurred, I found it helpful to ask the court reporter to repeat my last question, ask the interpreter to interpret it, then have the witness respond.
Mark Osherow: This is all true but in the end the benefits are immense. We had witnesses and parties from other countries who were able to actively participate from the comfort of their own office or home. Most clients would prefer to testify via Zoom at home or from an office than in a courtroom. We did not have to leave home and stay in Miami for seven days either.
Kristin Vivo: Very true! What else did you find to be a downfall?
Mark Osherow: At times, I did not like the air of informality that a Zoom trial may seem to imply. The seriousness, level of professionalism, and candor necessary to try a case can be difficult to maintain in a Zoom setting. As you recall some witnesses attempted to testify from a car and several did not even show up on time.. In a live trial, this may or may not have happened, but it seemed that some of the witnesses may have not taken their obligations quite as seriously as if they were actually going to the courthouse. The court enforced decorum throughout and was quite facilitative in addressing the needs of the platform and keeping things moving at a good pace. Counsel for all parties were professional throughout the proceeding and worked closely to schedule witnesses, and agree to admission of exhibits, without making unnecessary technical objections that saved everyone time and avoided addressing unnecessary issues with the court in most instances. But it is important to create a good record even when you believe the court will admit something you may not agree with.
Kristin Vivo: I agree. The seriousness was not seemingly comprehended by some of the participants.
Kristin Vivo: How did you feel the exhibits part of the trial went?
Mark Osherow: Well, the level of preparation with exhibits was generally also much higher than for a live trial (although I do prepare electronic exhibits of all my trial cases). In a Zoom trial you have to know exactly what exhibits will be used with each witness, because you have to have those exhibits accessible on your laptop’s desktop. While preplanning is always critical, there was an added level with a Zoom trial. You need to know how you are going to weave the exhibits together with the witnesses, at an enhanced level than at an in-person trial. This takes some getting used to in a virtual format. During a live trial I have folders with exhibits that I am going to use and can chose to introduce them into evidence or not as the trial proceeds. With the virtual format, the sense was that we had to have our game plan a step further ahead than in a live trial. While it may seem that the two should be the same, in practice, this aspect requires an added level of preparation for a virtual format like Zoon, at least for me. Each of us will need to assess how our personal preparation works best for presenting virtually.
Kristin Vivo: As a young(ish) whippersnapper, I am used to digital exhibits but someone who has been practicing since before the internet, such as yourself, is used to paper exhibits and binders.
Mark Osherow: That is true. But it is critical that all of us adjust and adapt to a technological world. I have tried to do that throughout my career and will continue to do so. There is a steep learning curve to get beyond the basics, but it is well worth it. The ability to present at a higher level than you have ever done before is enhanced by virtual formats such as Zoom and Microsoft Teams, among others. Using presentation software such as PowerPoint, Prezi, Google Slides, and others, through a platform such as Zoom can really enhance your presentation skills and ability. It is like a virtual teleprompter. So, you have what you need right in front of you for the participants to see and absorb but you do not have to stay right on script. You have a lot of flexibility with presenting. And you can easily zoom in (pun intended) on material in your presentations that are significant. (Use the wheel on your external mouse to do that – I recommend you use one and not the pad on your laptop - although that can come in handy as well). Also, try experimenting with the touch screen features on your laptop if you have them. I have not yet mastered this technique, but it may yield some great results.
Kristin Vivo: What about the element of surprise? As you recall we had to not only provide opposing counsel with all exhibits we planned to use at trial, we also had to provide them to the clerk. In this case the element of surprise was not necessary to be successful because the case relied heavily on documents. How would it have been different if an element of surprise was necessary?
Mark Osherow: Judges tend to frown on surprise. And the rules require disclosure. But there is an added level of disclosure in a virtual trial. We shared all of our exhibits via Dropbox. There are many platforms for sharing documents with opposing counsel. Sometimes the element of surprise is there particularly with rebuttal matters. That can be complicated in a Zoom trial. The best course may be to have those exhibits at the ready and be prepared to deliver them to the clerk immediately after the testimony via a flash (thumb) drive, or via email at that moment to the parties and the court. Ask the court and the clerk how that should be handled in advance. You do not want to be in a situation where the court refuses to allow an exhibit on the basis that it was not provided to the clerk as required in advance of the trial. If it really is an impeachment exhibit, the best course is to handle this may be as a hypothetical well in advance of the trial.
Kristin Vivo: How do you think it went with the evidence portion of the trial?
Mark Osherow: It actually went as well or better than a live trial because the exhibits were admitted in a very orderly fashion, ultimately. It did take some time for the clerk to agree on a chain of custody protocol given the number of exhibits from each side. Make sure you work closely with the clerk and the court to follow their instructions. Remember there may be a learning curve on both ends and the technological issues are not always clear. But do resist submitting everything in paper format where the case is complex and the exhibits are thousands of pages, many of which may not ultimately be admitted. Of course, honor the instructions you are given. But we were able to overcome all of these issues and submit the exhibits electronically. Think of ways to resolve issues that facilitate what everyone involved is seeking to accomplish. Let us not go backwards. Streamline your exhibits and your case for trial. This is always critical and more so under this format.
Mark Osherow: Kristin, what do you think the pros of having a nonjury trial via Zoom were?
Kristin Vivo: Aside from the fact that I got to wear sneakers (which may also be a con because I looked like one of the characters from “Working Girl”), I enjoyed the comradery and collaboration not normally present during a live trial. For example, we could comment as the trial went along, out loud, to each other (being mindful that our microphones were on mute!) rather than attempting to whisper or pass notes as necessary during a live trial. It was also helpful to be able to write questions on a piece of paper and hold them up for you to see if you missed an issue I wanted you to cover something further in your line of questioning.
Mark Osherow: I have to work harder at remembering to mute my microphone. Working with the court reporter was seamless. At times there were some technical difficulties involving audio quality but those were resolved. What else did you enjoy?
Kristin Vivo: I also enjoyed being able to have fellow attorney colleagues observe the trial. If this was a live trial, we would never have had five colleagues, in person, at trial observing! The support was wonderful, and I am grateful for the opportunity to be able to share my passion during a trial with them!
Mark Osherow: I agree. Kristin, can you discuss the objection process throughout trial? Did you have a hard time making your objections heard? What was the significant difference between making objections during a live trial versus a Zoom trial?
Kristin Vivo: I did not find there to be a significant difference. It did not work for me because I have a Mac, but I know it worked for you: using the spacebar to mute and unmute! I know your objections were twice as fast using that trick!
Mark Osherow: What can I say, I am a trial tech nerd.
Kristin Vivo: I did not have a hard time making my objections heard. First of all, the court and all attorneys present were very attentive. If any of our lips were moving while we were on mute one of the attorneys present or the judge would stop and ask if the attorney speaking on mute had an objection. I think we also had more time than normal to object because if we did not unmute in time to object we still had to wait for the interpreter to finish before the witness answered. We could object as the interpreter was speaking. I did not find there to be a significant difference between making objections live versus via Zoom. This is not a Zoom webinar, this is trial! You have to be attentive and responsive at all times, not on mute with stop camera pretending to attend.
Mark Osherow: The court handled the objections well, with reasonable flexibility given the format, without a jury. I do think there are going to be additional considerations and issues to work through for jury trials. But most of those should be resolvable. The platform is not perfect (in terms of replicating the human world of interaction) but does offer a lot of flexibility and really enables us as litigators to accomplish our goals. In addition to routine non-evidentiary matters, while Zoom and other platforms of this nature may not be the perfect solution for every trial, there are many matters, including lengthy evidentiary hearings and trials that can—and should—be effectively handled virtually. It was great to work on one of the first full trials on Zoom in Florida, and while we were not necessarily making history, all of us felt we were contributing to bringing the use of virtual platforms beyond being an experiment for conducting extensive evidentiary hearings and multi-day trials in Florida’s courts.